Save Distemper Dogs Discussion Board [archived]
NOTE: The Save Distemper Dogs Discussion Board ran from 2011-2020. But for a long time it had become too difficult to add new members and approve posts because of overwhelming SPAM requests. It crashed for the last time in July 2020. I was able to salvage much of the content and repost it here. Some of this has missing info, very little contact info and many of the links may not work. However, the discussions between the dog owners here may help others looking for ideas and suggestions. There are no guarantees that any of this will work or help, but this is what other owners have tried, and sometimes if you just help your dog feel better and keep them eating, that could be enough to give the dog the will to survive. So, if these techniques help your dog feel better and survive this disease, then that makes it worth it.
Most of these posts were meant for dogs in neurologic distemper or had gone though the NDV spinal tap. According to our anecdotal information, about 45 percent of dogs in neuro distemper who got the NDV spinal tap survived. However, a professor at Kansas State who studied that treatment did not think it was helpful. But he also said we give up on these dogs too early. Many dogs can survive if they can get enough nursing care. Not every dog can survive distemper. Sometimes the disease hits too fast and too hard so that euthanasia is the most humane option, but more dogs are saved when their owners and vets are willing to give them a chance to survive.
The message through all of this is that dogs with distemper do not have to die. Even dogs that reach the neurologic stage can achieve a decent quality of life.
Even in the neurologic stage, if a dog keeps eating and shows a will to live, they have a chance to survive. It may take months, but if they can get enough nursing care, the dog can can last until the virus goes silent. Neurologic problems may remain, but may be managed with drugs, physical therapy and other treatments.
Many of the posts from years ago had to do with dogs with uncontrollable tremors, head bobbing and lockjaw, which made it difficult for a dog to eat. One possible answer that has been published more recently in a veterinary journal is the use of botox injections. You might ask your vet about whether it is a feasible treatment.
You can read about that here:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23325599/
If you would like to share your advice, suggestions and stories to this page, please email me at ed.bond.new.york@gmail.com.
For more information about how to save dogs from distemper, go to www.kindheartsinaction.com.
'Welcome to the SaveDistemperDogs discussion board', 'So many dogs have been treated, but the experience for dog owners after the NDV spinal tap have been so varied. Some dogs recover quickly with little trouble, while for others, it is an ordeal for the pet and the owner. This forum has been created as a way for owners to share their stories and offer each other advice about possible strategies for helping your dog after the NDV treatment.
Vaccination is the best way to prevent your dog from getting sick, and if your dog does get sick with distemper the serum discovered by Dr. Al Sears can stop the disease in its tracks -- if given before going through the sixth day of symptoms.
This discussion forum is meant for those who weren't so lucky to stop the disease before seizures started. For more information about these treatments, go to http://www.kindheartsinaction.com/ or to https://savedistemperdogs.com/
-- Ed Bond
Some notes from Dr. Sears on treating neurologic distemper'
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2010/03/31/must-read-notes-from-dr-sears-on-pneumonia-distemper/
'Here 's a link to some cases of neurologic distemper:
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/08/success-stories-dogs-saved-after-neurologic-stage/
How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?
'Dear All,
My name is Bezen. Me and my husband had adopted a puppy (Dexter) from the shelter about 3 months ago. about 4 months old. When we first got him, he was fine but a few days later he stopped eating and diarrhea started. Our doctor made a test for canine distemper (it was negative) But they treated him somehow. Then his vaccine schedule started. All his vaccine had been done. But after a month later he started to have spazm from his belly area and started to cry very very loud. Our doctor said that he could have parasites side affect. And they try to treat that way for about 2 months. As you can all guess nothing has changed.Then we went to another vet and they diagnosed the real disease (canine distemper). I found this treatment from the internet, and contacted to Mr. Ed Bond. He helped me so much about the information that I needed.I shared this information with our new vet and they were willing to do the treatment. And finally we did it yesterday. Today is our first day. I will inform you about his situation. If you have been tried this treatment, can you please share what you've been through.
Thank you.'
Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?',
'Hi, It's been 11 days since the tap treatment.
Fİrst days he was so bad.He refused to eat or drink. The second day after the treatment when I woke up I found him lying on the carpet and he couldn't move, he even pied severel times while he was lying. And he was very angry. He didn't let us to touch him mostly to his head. He tried to bite us. We hardly took him to our Vet. He had a 40 C degree fever. Our Vet gave him some medicane for his fever. And we came back to home. After 12 hours he finally could stand up. His seizures were worse for couple of days after the treatment. But now Dexter has started to eat again by his own. His seizures are better. He even started to play with his toys. But he is so weak mostly and he usually sleeps. will inform you further. Please share your stories about your puppies treatment. So we can compare our after-treatment complications.
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?',
'Hi, My dog Junior, 6 yr old, has done spinal tap for 9 days and the seizure is getting worse, especially at night. His legs are kicking like cycling. Can anyone share with me what you have done for helping the seizure better? Did you start using Vitamin B1 and B12 for repair his nerve system and how was it?'
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?'
‘I’ve been going through info I've received from dog owners who have been able to get through the toughest part of this battle, when it seems the dog is getting worse, not better, after the spinal tap. There are no guarantees, but some have made it. From what I have read, intense TLC, love and affection can make a big difference. Follow your instincts. Other tips from owners, and please add your own insights, suggestions and experiences: Keeping the dog quiet and sedated for the first two weeks after the procedure is key. To control the seizures: Phenobarbital Valium -- can be given rectally if you cannot give it by mouth. Morphine for dogs Baclofen http://www.drugs.com/baclofen.html Lyric ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000327 To help repair the nerve damage: fat soluble b1/b12 vitamins
http://www.mcvitamins.com/neuropathy.htm
For more insight: http://www.dachshundrescuesouthflorida.com/DRSF_FeaturedTailsRomeo.html
From Dr. Sears about B vitamins:
As to your B vitamin question. B vitamins, it seems, stimulate the growth of cells, especially viral cells. So., any addition to the system allows for increased replication of said cells. Enough said. Don't use B vitamins. Vitamin C seems to help as well as Vit A. Doc
From Ed Bond: However, I would think that if the dog is clear of the virus, then that would be less of an issue. So, at a later stage I would think that B vitamins might make sense.
Another tip: Tramadol may help with the bad neck pain that may follow the NDV spinal tap.
http://dog-care.suite101.com/article.cfm/tramadol-drug-medication-for-dogs-to-treat-pain
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?',
'If you need further help, I think the best person to contact is Vickie Novak in Orlando at
She got her dog Sookie through this and can give you practical advice about the post-treatment care.'
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?',
"mavis906 "
“Hi, My dog Junior, 6 yr old, has done spinal tap for 9 days and the seizure is getting worse, especially at night. His legs are kicking like cycling. Can anyone share with me what you have done for helping the seizure better? Did you start using Vitamin B1 and B12 for repair his nerve system and how was it?”
Been a long time! did they use anticonvulsant, muscle relaxant like phenobarbital etc?', '
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?', '
Hello, Our Mitzi is a small Terrier/ Chihuaua mix, approx age 8 months. We adopted her from our city pound. She was coughing and sneezing at first. vet put her on injection Baytril and PO Clavamox. She seemed to get better after 10 days then once off he meds got sick imediately. We did reserch of computer found Dr. Sears site. Took her back to vet, She had fever 103 and He put her on another round of PO Clavamox, said it was probably Distemper. On her 16th day we found another vet that administered the serum SQ. On her 3rd injection she started twitching. He then did the spinal and one more SQ serum. Home again on Clavamox and phenobarbitol. First 24 hrs she got up and ate like she was starved walked around made a bowel movement (first time since SQ injection). She is only 5.6Lbs and over excerts herself quickly the dehydrates quickly also. We are retired medics on ambulance and are trying to keep her hydrated SQ. She responds by wagging tail, barking and walks around a few times a day. Mostly sleeps. The twitching is still with her and is more prominant when she rests. I have been feeding her unseasoned cooked chicken with butter and potatoes. She also followed my Grandson eating his Cherrios he dropped on floor. Then back to bed for a long sleep. Today is now going into 62 hrs after spinal. Any suggestions would be greatfully appreciated.',
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?'
'Ok I need some suggestions that are up to date. I 've read all I can. She is day 4 post tap. she was up last night whimpering and pee pee 'd 3 times walked around house, however this morning she acts lethargic. she responds to verbal stimulus with eyes. She is running fever off and on between 100.7 and 103.5. This while on clavamox. water by syringe and liquid food by syringe every hour now. yesterday she acted same in the AM took her to Doc. he said reduce phenabarbitol. so she has only had last night dose 3.75 mg. but today don 't know whether to give it to her tonight in her state. help',
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?', 'Mitzi is in the critical first week after treatment and sounds like she is hanging in there. Please read the posts on the rest of the board. This is where I 've asked people to share their experiences. A little karo syrup on the tongue can help stimulate appetite. Keep the dog calm and resting as much as possible. Recovery is not a straight line of constant improvement. There can be setbacks, but the concept is that hopefully the virus has been stopped from making any further neuro damage and now we need time to allow the system to heal itself. It can take weeks or months, but things can gradually improve. Some will continue to live with minor twitches, but it can be manageable with medication. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees here. The survival rate is only about 50 percent. But Mitzi sounds to have at least cleared the first hurdles.',
'Re: How successful has the NDV spinal tap treatment been?',
'I got a little concerned today about her ups and downs so I took her back to the doc that did the tap. He said she was doing better than some he 'd seen and to be patient and keep up the fluid and vitamin and food regiment. Some times she eats on her own amd others she won 't even drink. She was well out of it on the phenobarbitol. The doc took her down a dose and she has reponded better. She is walking around more, going out to make potty. Still a funny about eating so we are feeding her by syringe. This food is cooked chicken, potatoes, carrots,( no seasonings), Probalance nutrients. All is blended into cream ( like a shake). Aso using the Karo to help it go down. She is keeping it down and making bowel movements. This is not a put them in the quite corner with food bowl and hope they do it own their own thing. This is intense rehab for your pet. You will do everything for them. Like a family member after a major brain injury from a wreck. I also excercise her, light walk aroumd the yard, reason ( after surgery in a human, they have you walk and breath into a spiral meter to prevent you from developing pneumonia. this happens when you sit around and not exercice the lungs will fill up with fluid). Makes sense to do with dogs too. Doc said her lungs are clear after looking at xray. She is also on Clavamox oral dose as a precaution. Also keeping their nose cleaned like with a new baby use saline mist or solution and qtips. follow directions on bottle and clean the boogies out so they can breath better. Therefor getting higher O2 saturation. After I rub a little A&D ointment or vapor rub ( small amount) over dry nose. Helps keep it moist. Keeping eyes clean I use flush of 3cc normal saline solution each eye sofar every2 days then apply the eye anitibiotic cream. Her eyes are better now. I seen a video today of a recent save, I have more hope for Mitzi. Please do what you can for you pet if you are reading this. It is no different that your own child and you wouldn 't give up on that!'
'Re: Tips for a post-spinal tap distemper dog'
'Relaying information from Vickie Novak in Orlando: I forgot to mention that Sookie was given an anti inflammatory injection post spinal for the trip home and was sent home on metacam--it's a anti-inflammatory med more specifically in reducing the localized trauma to the neck area to relieve the swelling or inflammation, so this is getting at source of pain versus tramadol just getting rid of pain-- the dogs can have both meds at same time but as always folks should follow their vets instructions both are rx meds
the most important thing is getting these dogs over pneumonia if they have that, keeping hydrated and fed well- you know better than I many dogs have made it over the neuro to die of pneumonia.'
'Getting a distemper dog to eat'
'Please use this to post strategies that worked for you in getting your distemper dog to eat. One poster recommends raw liver. Here's what someone else recommends:
“Cook up quartered potatoes and skinless chicken breast and boil it for 1.5 hours TOGETHER. Feed small meals every 2-3 hours of 70 percent potato / 30 percent chicken. Distemper animals are nauseous and until the serum takes hold, you have to give him water and food. I use Karo syrup from the baking aisle at the supermarket -- the clear one -- and put a little on his tongue or roof of his mouth every few hours. It works great to quell the sick stomach and then they can eat and drink. Fluids are very important for three days or so while the serum is working. If he drinks, no need for hospital. If he doesn't and they can't be syringed in, he will need to be in the hospital.”
What else has worked?'
Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat', '
Reposting from Facebook: Jennifer Randolph Graddy
I purchased Boar's Head turkey from the deli and it is all she would eat for two weeks. Then I started mixing in some Prescription Diet A/D with the turkey. Also used Karo syrup. When she was really sick I blended the turkey and A/D together and used a syringe.
Suzanna Urszuly
what worked on our puppy was chicken, chicken soup and puppy gold ( a very good supplement). She is doing amazing now! :) --
'Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat',
'Hi, I recently rescued two puppies who were just diagnosed wit distemper. I am a Biology major on the Pre-Veterinary track and work at an animal clinic. I have been so fortunate to have the support of my staff in caring for the puppies. There were a few days where they were not eating very well so I was forced to give them fluids. Other than that I have had great success in getting the dogs to eat! You have to try different things until you find the one thing that the animal likes. For Faith ( the female) puppy, I cook chicken in a chicken broth with vegies. I cut up the chicken and mix it in with rice and I pour some of the broth over the mixture. She loves it. Make sure not to season the chicken. I heat up her food before giving it to her. WHen the food is warm the smell is more potent. For Gray (male puppy) I give him Nutro Max lab meal kibble and I pour broth over the kibble. I make it like a soup. I warm up the broth before pouring it over the kibble. I hand feed both of them and at times it is a pain but it gets the job done. To give Faith her meds I make her a meatball of prescription diet r/d. She really loves it. Gray does not take his meds easily, but I recently tried giving him his pills in cottage cheese and he really loved it. However, the cottage cheese spoils quickly. Hope I helped
Jackie'
'Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat',
'I just gave warm milk and warm water to my miniature pinscher, back when she got distemper, I almost had no hope but I was patient and she survived a couple of days after her suffering.
Is it recommended to give them milk if there are no other alternatives?',
'Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat', '
Answer from Dr. Sears about milk: “Ed,There is NO food of any kind at this time known to help or control any virus disease much less Distemper. In fact at t his time NO oral medication that has been developed yet.”
'Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat',
'Here 's some more advice from Vickie Novak:
"Folks are doing what they can out of the trying to save their babies so if you get any emails of folks doing syringe feeds ask them to stop especially if dogs has gone neuro the tongue does not work well with the jaw tremors. they are better to have vet show them sub q fluids and paste food in gums and let dog lick off on own. "'
'Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat',
'It is not bad to give the dog milk, but it just doesn 't do anything against the disease.',
Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat',
'Patton,
1 and 3 months condition before,where he had this in two weeks time (didnt know he has already distemper) : hard to get on his feet,no balance, had weight loss, eye had discharge, hardened nose after i gave patton : 1.) lots of water with high dosage of sugar, (use syringe if he cannot drink on its own) every month 2.) canned tuna(vit a) mixed with rice together with its fish oil 3.) canned dog food w/liver 4.) human infants milk for 1-6 month 5.) meds prescribed by vets (vit c, antibiotics, etc. support meds) 6.) some short walking exercise every morning, since sunlight in the morning is the healthiest on his 3rd week: he was able to cope up with his condition, get his strength back today is his 4th week : we decide to undergo a spinal tap because hes nervous system is affected, i tried it and i hope hes gonna do better and gain his full strength back, and do activities like running and jumping'
'Re: Getting a distemper dog to eat', 'I think all of the advice posted about getting a distemper dog to eat is good. I would just like to add that our dog Bella would eat baby food when she would eat nothing else. Our vet used it and she loved it. When she would go back to not eating I would syringe it and she tolerated it. When they are not eating or drinking it 's reallly important to see the vet often to let them check for dehydration. Exercise does stimulate their appetite and warming the food does help make it more appetizing too. other foods that haven 't been mentioned are cooked eggs and meat. Our vet gave us chewable vitamins to put in the food. They were easy to crumble.'
'More tips on getting distemper dog to eat'
'Sharing some of the best suggestions from our Facebook page on how to get a distemper dog to eat.
baby food - chicken, turkey tablespoon of corn syrup in 8 ounces of drinking water Darwin 's Raw diet
"soaking their food in warm chicken broth (homemade) and making a warm mash. Also adding baby food helped. "
MaKenna Marie Arrigo •
"When Bella wouldn 't eat Dr. H. called a burger place he knew and asked them to cook ground beef very rare. He said the aroma and warmth of the food helps. He also got scrambled eggs and boiled rice. He had me add water to the baby food and syringe feed her every 2-3 hours through the night. He had me walk her several times a day to build strength, get sunshine and fresh air and to make her hungry. I didn 't realize that exercise would make her hungry but it did. "He also believes( as I 'm sure we all agree) that being snuggled and loved by their human is so important to recovery. In his clinic he wants the owners to be with their dogs/cats the whole time- especially when waking up from a procedure and during recovery. They need to have reason to get better. " Elizabeth Nelson
"Nutri-plus gel helps their appetite a lot. chicken+celery+carrots boiled together, served warm. mixing wet food with warm water helps too. "
Lim Wen Yih
"I also used puppy formula (GMC)!that is high in calories and worked well. "
Carrie Reed
"We 've had some luck adding wheat germ and fish oil to a mix of high protein wet and raw puppy food. Alternating pedialyte and water. "
Anna Burgess
NOTE: Do not force feed your dog because this can cause choking. At most, try pasting the food onto the teeth and gums and let the dog lick the food off from there.'
'Head Bob after distemper'
'Just wondering if anyone has found a good combo of meds to control a chronic head bob. We have tried Phenobarb and Lyrica, herbals (valerian, passion flower, skull cap, nervous system tonic), homeopathics (nox vomice and cuprum metallicum), . We started Gabapentin last week and Zonisamide a few days ago but does not seem to be helping. I am thinking of adding potassium bromide. Any thoughts? Anyone had success with this? She is 4 months old and 13lbs.
Laurie
'Re: Head Bob after distemper',
'Max had the spinal tap treatment last November, and his head still bobs whenever he sits or stands still. It used to bother me - probably more than it has ever bothered him. He also has jaw chomping whenever he lies down. But the vets really don 't think any of it bothers him. I certainly don't see how the head bobbing would cause any pain. Is there a reason you think it's hurting your puppy? Does she seem fine otherwise?
Re: Head Bob after distemper', '
We started Sugar on Baclofen. The dose is 1-2 mg/ kg 3x per day. She has stopped twitching in her sleep for the 1st time in months. She still twitches when she is awake but she has only had 1 dose about to get her 2nd. We have tried MANY different drugs. So far this seems to be the most promising. She is also on Zonisamide.',
'Re: Head Bob after distemper',
'How is she doing now? Has this drug done anything for her head bobbing? Have you taken any video we can see of before and after? may put Max on it if it seems to work. As I wrote, he's had the head bobbing and twitching since he was treated in November. Thanks.
We started Sugar on Baclofen. The dose is 1-2 mg/ kg 3x per day. She has stopped twitching in her sleep for the 1st time in months. She still twitches when she is awake but she has only had 1 dose about to get her 2nd. We have tried MANY different drugs. So far this seems to be the most promising. She is also on Zonisamide.
'Re: Head Bob after distemper'
'Hey K9Mom74
How is Sugar doing now? Has this drug done anything for her head bobbing? Have you taken any video we can see of before and after? Very interested in hearing the latest - Thanks!'
'Re: Head Bob after distemper'
'My Sookie also has this residual spasm/seizure with the gum jaw chew and head bob--she is post spinal 8 months--it has not decreased as of yet but we have hope still as Dr Sears has said the new neuro tract-road maps take time but in mean time we have tried phenobarb no help gabapentin only slight decrease potassium bromide by its self not much help BUT we are adding phenobarb with the potassium bromide as Dr Sears recommended and our vet prescribed---please note if you try the potassium bromide it is a compound mixture so can run a bit in cost but I found it online through Dr Fosters pet med site much cheaper--there is a loading dose for 5 days than a maintanc dose for the pooch---
wish us well as we try the phenobarb/potassium bromide combo--we are giving it 4 weeks to see if it helps--if not we are going to see a dogie neurologist in Sarasota--we love near Orlando and beleive it or not this is the closest dog neurologist for us--there are not that many in our state of Florida',
Unusual Symptoms post Neuro CD treatment
'My dog Murphy was infected with canine distemper early February unfortunately, I didn't get the diagnosing until three months later when his skin issues progressed into walking issues which then led to paralysis of his hind legs and one grand mal seizure. I had gotten him the body and tap NVD treatment on the 18th of May. The week following his treatment was quite rocky, he was totally paralyzed, couldn't lift his head or eat on his own. I seriously questioned whether the treatment had worked or not. It took another week of slow decline when, on the 14th day post treatment he started to grasp his back right foot. Three day's later he started to move his tail, then his legs would go in a back and forth motion. It was major progress! Then three weeks post tap he started to move his legs almost automatically, all the time he couldn't rest. I decided to up the crumbs of pheno-barb to about 16 mg a day. This definitely stopped the uncontrollable leg movement but it also stopped any movement whatsoever. Thats when his neck started to twist around to the right, he looked like a horseshoe. His neck would only twist while he was conscious, leading me to think it wasn't inflammation. It has been about a week since these symptoms progressed, and now his neck is twisting like a pretzel across his back. I did get a brace for him but, I am not sure if there is also some sort of medications I could use in conjunction with it. He isn't crying and doesn't seem to be in pain. Does anyone have any experience with post tap issues? I would really appreciate any input! Perhaps anything else that might be expected recovery wise?
'Re: Unusual Symptoms post Neuro CD treatment',
'Its been one month and 19 days since murphy's treatment for neurologic distemper. He was treated with both the serum and the tap. A week ago he could stand on his legs with my assistance. His neck has definitely eased up but, it is still pretty rigid. While he sleeps I can see the muscle spasms along the right side of his neck down to his front leg....I have increased his pheno-b and that seems to help vastly. Today he moved his head as I blew on his ears, he seems to be gaining sensation back, also all his legs have started to move. I really must have an unusual case being as its been a month post treatment and Murphy isn't walking or eating on his own yet...but as long as he's not in any pain I keep holding on AND I see progress everyday! If anyone has any guidance or similar issues post-treatment I would greatly appreciate it.'
''Re: Unusual Symptoms post Neuro CD treatment'
'My dog seems to have this as well. His back legs twitch the most, mouth and the front legs are starting to twitch as well. I also notice that his head is partly on the left side I think and scratches his head most of the time with occasional outbalance causing him to hit objects...he is however very active and still eats so I really don 't know if this is a good sign.'
'Re: Unusual Symptoms post Neuro CD treatment',
'My dog right now is very much livelier with only NDV spinal tap treatment. I see him leap and wake me up on my bed reaching me. This is his 2nd week. The twitching is still there and according to research, a dog survivor often lose his teeth. My dog looses two teeth, we will monitor if this will go on as we now give him soft-to-eat meals. Hope this will keep getting better and better. Please inform dog owners about prevention and early diagnose of this disease. Thanks
Bartley's story - so far, so much success!
'When I adopted Bartley nearly two years ago, I had no idea that the twitch he exhibited at every moment was a symptom of distemper. When I took him in to the vet for routine immunizations only a couple of months after I adopted him, I was told this information, and I also learned that he was heart worm positive. We immediately started preparing him for heart worm treatment, and I was told by several veterinarians that although Bartley most likely had distemper, nothing could be done. They informed me that he most likely would die from encephalitis, but that it was possible he might still live to be an old dog. That summer, (2009) the people I adopted him from contacted me. They told me that the other dogs they rescued with Bartley, were all coming down with distemper. They told me what symptoms to look out for, and described to me the procedure that Dr. Sears had developed. Of course I already knew he had distemper, and because of what other vet's had told me, I was skeptical. Still, I became very worried, so I took Bartley's previous owners' advice, and contacted the vet that had performed the procedure on their other dogs. At the time, this vet felt that Barltey was stable and not progressing, so she recommended that I come back if and when he started showing other signs, such as fly biting episodes or seizures. I left hoping it would never come to that. Sadly, this past June, Bartley started having fly-biting episodes. Over a two week period, he had three episodes, and he progressively spent more time in a disoriented state. His facial twitching become much more severe as well. When I took him in to Dr. Zilkha here in Austin, Texas, she felt certain he had Canine Distemper, and had already performed the procedure on nearly 30 dogs. We wasted no time. She checked on his immune system, to see make sure his chances of responding to the treatment were good, and then Bartley went in to the receive the serum both intravenously and via spinal tap. Dr. Z did a wonderful job. Bartley woke up the next morning without even the slightest headache! Soon after the treatment, she told me that the CSF came back positive for distemper antibodies, so Bartley's distemper was confirmed. Since the procedure, he has not had a single fly-biting episode or had moments of disorientation. Even his twitch is less severe. I feel so fortunate that Dr. Sears developed this procedure, and that the people I adopted Bartley from read about it, and took the time to convince Dr. Z to try it on their dogs. For dogs who have strong enough immune systems, I believe this procedure works. It certainly did for Bartley. Please share his story with anyone you know who has a dog that is sick with distemper.'
'Tips for a post-spinal tap distemper dog'
'I've been going through info I’ve received from dog owners who have been able to get through the toughest part of this battle, when it seems the dog is getting worse, not better, after the spinal tap. There are no guarantees, but some have made it. From what I have read, intense TLC, love and affection can make a big difference. Follow your instincts. Other tips from owners, and please add your own insights, suggestions and experiences:
Keeping the dog quiet and sedated for the first two weeks after the procedure is key.
To control the seizures: Phenobarbital / Valium -- can be given rectally if you cannot give it by mouth. Morphine for dogs Baclofen"http://www.drugs.com/baclofen.html nLyrica http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000327 "
To help repair the nerve damage: at soluble b1/b12 vitamins "http://www.mcvitamins.com/neuropathy.htm
For more insight: http://www.dachshundrescuesouthflorida.com/DRSF_FeaturedTailsRomeo.html
From Dr. Sears about B vitamins:
As to your B vitamin question.
B vitamins, it seems, stimulate the growth of cells, especially viral cells. So., any addition to the system allows for increased replication of said cells. Enough said. Don't use B vitamins. Vitamins ONLY have an effect when there is a deficiency. C has no effect, A can be used to help reduce scaring caused by viral disease in the skin, NOT A CURE. All the B’s are thought to enhance the replication of viral diseases. None, No vitamin is known to enhance the growth of neural tissue. Sorry. Doc
Another tip: Tramadol may help with the bad neck pain that may follow the NDV spinal tap.http://dog-care.suite101.com/article.cfm/tramadol-drug-medication-for-dogs-to-treat-pain
'Where to get basic information', 'Here is a PDF on the treatments, available for download:
http://www.edbond.com/NDV_packet.pdf
Here are the pages that explains neurologic treatment:
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/05/treatment-of-neurologic-distemper
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/12/17/dr-sears-describes-a-spinal-tap/
Please read these pages to get an education on the possibilities -- and the limits -- of these treatments:
"http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/04/save-dogs-from-canine-distemper-frequently-asked-questions/
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/23/video-gallery/
"http://kindheartsinaction.com/2010/03/31/must-read-notes-from-dr-sears-on-pneumonia-distemper/
The discussion board for dogs in the post-spinal tap phase here:
"http://www.edbond.com/distemper/discussionboard/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2 ">viewforum.php?f=2
Main website: http://www.edbond.com/distemper/
'twitching'
'My 4 mo old lab mix began to twitch in his front right leg and at the base of his tail. It has effected his walking / running and he tumbles over at times. Is there any medication we can do to eliminate or decrease the twitching? Luckily he has not had any “seizures”. This is the only remaining sign of the distemper (except for his permanent teeth. The top portion look like tarter build up. I assume that is the enamel that has been damaged).'
Re: twitching', '
Sorry, but the twitching in a distemper dog means this is neurologic distemper.
Here is a PDF on the treatments, available for download: http://www.edbond.com/NDV_packet.pdf
Here are the pages that explains neurologic treatment:
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/0
Please read these pages to get an education on the possibilities -- and the limits -- of these treatments:
"http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/0
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/0
"http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/23/video-gallery/
"http://kindheartsinaction.com/2010/03/3 "
The discussion board for dogs in the post-spinal tap phase here:
"http://www.edbond.com/distemper/
E-mail us at ed.bond.new.york@gmail.com and we'll try to find a vet who can help you.
Another tip: Tramadol may help with the bad neck pain that may follow the NDV spinal tap.
http://dog-care.suite101.com/article.cfm/tramadol-drug-medication-for-dogs-to-treat-pain
'Lockjaw'
We had a discussion on the board earlier about lockjaw, and somehow it seems to have been lost. It may have happened when the board crashed back in October. Today I heard of a dog in Malaysia that we lost to lockjaw after the NDV spinal tap. If anyone runs into this again, here is some notes I had been sent on how someone was able to save their dog from lockjaw:
“We have a guy with lock jaw. Neuroton and accupuncture has helped and he has been totally eating on this own for months and enjoying his life.”
If anyone else has experiences to share that will help other owners dealing with lockjaw, please post them here.'
'Constipation'
'Anyone have tips on how to help a distemper dog that is constipated?'
Re: Constipation', 'Here is a recipe from Vickie Novak of Orlando, Florida, on what to give a dog that is constipated and suffering from distemper. Sorry in advance to vegetarians but this recipe is very nutritious for dogs and most of these dogs have had such a lot of weight loss from fighting pneumonia that they need this -
got from rescue help site
the cereal, molasses and whet germ will help get their little bowels moving without causing loose stools.
the recipe is 1 pound hamburger - get fatty stuff not lean they need the fats
2 cups of Total cereal I use Walmart brand same stuff --I put between paper towels and crush it up with rolling pin
2 oz of wheat germ - find this at Walmart on cereal isle near the oats
2 oz of molasses--find this right near wheat germ eggs
1 packet of knox unflavored gelatin
2 oz vegetable oil
mix it all together--smells awful but dogs will love it and it is nutritious too--hamburger is fed raw --dogs don't have to worry about ecoli
this mixture should last about 1-2 days -give in addition to regular food-- make sure she/he is getting high protein puppy food still or whatever vet recommended
I give Sookie about 6-8 rolled balls of recipe'
'Jaw clenching'
This is one of the most troubling problems for a post-NDV spinal tap distemper dog. While other symptoms may have subsided, the dog clenches its jaw uncontrollably, making it impossible to eat. This can kill a distemper dog because it won't be able to eat. We need to brainstorm on this, and I'd like to invite anyone to suggest ideas. Minnie, the distemper dog from Miami , is showing this symptom and needs your help.
Reposting a suggestion from Billy Tate off of Facebook
“Try getting your vet to give you midazolam. It’s a sedative that also greatly reduces the myoclonus intensity. It also stimulates the appetite. Give her the prescribed amount. Then let her sleep until she wakes up. Then be ready with good human grade healthy food. I had to put food under bella's cheek at one point when she couldn't raise her head. She could open her mouth just enough for the food to fall in and she would swallow it. Use raw hamburger! It's a great immune booster and is easy to make into small pieces.. I also used cooked chicken, and soy beans. Whatever it takes, try using a spoon to feed her as well. I can't emphasize enough the quality of the food. Dog food is no good”
'Re: Jaw clenching',
'I just want to add that DO NOT force water in these dogs with syringe--the risk for aspiration is too great--the dog wil drown on the fluids in lungs or get a aspiration pneumonia. Ask your vet to allow you to give sub cutaneous fluids at home--this is not hard at all==the dogs are so lethargic they do not care. There are high nutrition rx vet canned food from vet and these do contain also higher liquid content---with my Sookie I pasted the food in her gums--small amounts--she would lick off on own.Try to feed the dog every 4 hours as prescibed by your vet---also try human foods when they do start to pickup appetite and can move jaw better--scambled eggs with cheese good source of protein, chicken also in small bite sizes. My dog Sookie had the jaw clench tight for long time--I beleive its due to the constant jaw chew spasm-- she actually still has it --milder now but it is less--trying different anti seizure meds in hopes to decrease the spasm/seizures to her jaw, and front arm and chest. Have patience with your dogs progress---it is a long road for recovery but there is hope--I fed Sookie for 2 weeks and gave sub cutaneous fluids for about 1 week--when she lapped up some water on her own it was great day-- she had to dip almost her entire snout in bowl to lap up because of jaw spasm and tongue still not moving great but she did it on her own. She is 8 months post ndv spinal treatment and she is doing well --she gallops around and plays and this was a dog nearly paralyzed, stumbling falling over 2 days before her spinal ndv treatment. The important things post spinal are to keep them comfortable, hydrated and fed and get their antibiotics in them--many dogs make it through neuro stage/ndv treatment only to succumb to the pneumonia and/or dehydration/malnutrition.'
'pregnant dog twitching movements'
'my beagle is 7 weeks pregnant but she is suffering from twitching of one back leg ( jerking movement). She was diagnosed with distemper using a titer test. According to the vet the result was postive - low distemper. I cannot understand, my beagle only displays only one symptom of distemper that is a nuerological twitching of the behind leg. She has full appetite, no discharges from nasal and eyes, no padding of the foot and no twitching of head but only twitching of the limb. She taking nuerobion and liquid syrup to boost her immune system . Please help. What will i do with her and her pups in case of a successful whelping? Will I hand raise the pups or breast feed them. What are the chances of the pup getting infected after whelping and during pregnancy? Can the pregant dog be subjected to dr sears medication using the new castle vaccination program? Is titer test recommended as this case or a antigen test? Thank you.. I dont know if this issue falls under a new different topic because iam a newbie in this forum. Its hard for me beacause the patient is pregnant.',
'Re: twitching',
'Please e-mail me directly at ed.bond.new.york@gmail.com I can refer you to vets who can help, depending on where you are. So, let me know that quickly. You might also e-mail Dr. Al Sears at antidistemper@aol.com This is a unique situation and you should ask for his opinion directly. I 'm not a vet, but it sounds like the pregnant dog needs the NDV spinal tap and the puppies will need to be treated with serum immediately after being born. More information: http://kindheartsinaction.com
By the way, distemper attacks every dog differently. Sometimes you only see one symptom and sometimes the first symptom you see is the seizures.'
'Day 1 - post tap'
'My foster 12 week old lab pup Lola had three injections of serum over two days and on 3rd day (yesterday) had her spinal. She is heavily sedated with phenobarbitol right now but is still seizing, not as strong and not as often. Her kennel mate Lila, a 10 week old small terrier mix also had the serum due to a cough she was developing though she never presented with seizures. She is doing wonderful, her cough disappeared completely in 12 hours. (Lila survived parvo and coccidia three weeks earlier and was on heavy antibiotics already) Lola does not seem to be doing well to me. She is not able to eat due to her jaw clenching so much and she is too sedate. I am feeding her babyfood via syringe. She does drink water. I 'm just taking it one minute at a time. Should these patients stay sedate as long as possible with syringe feeding and fluids sub-q, or should they get back to "normal " as quickly as possible?',
'Re: Day 1 - post tap',
'Generally, you should keep your dog quiet and sedated for the first week or two after the NDV spinal tap. Vets often use phenobarbital and valium after the procedure. The difficulty in eating is dangerous, and needs to be resolved. But that is not easy. There are tips under another topic titled "Getting a distemper dog to eat. " You should check those out. I have heard of one owner who had a couple of the dog 's teeth removed to prevent the problem with lockjaw.',
'issues after distemper with balance'
'hello, my puppy minnie had distemper and we caught it after about a week. she wouldn’t eat, throwing up, sleeping, eye discharge and twitching in one hind leg. she had the spinal tap surgery and seems to be doing better. her hind leg was the only one twitching and it seems to be twitching less since the surgery. she eats some on her own and we force feed her hills a/d to make sure she is getting enough nutrition. she drinks water on her own. she is having some issues with her balance and her legs and breathing. her eyes also have been very dischargy and nose also. we have some questions for anybody who has had similar probelms after surgery. my question is about her not having great balance. she has always been able to walk but now after the treatment she seems confused and has a loss of balance. it seems like it is the worst when she gets up after a nap. she also will shake her head sometimes when she walks like her head feels different or something. she sometimes loses her balance but is still walking around. she also will want off the couch and then want to be put back on over and over like she is confused. is this normal? did anyone have this happen to their dog?? we are hoping it is just from her having the spinal surgery and it will go away. any information would be key. also, she has a lot of white stuff coming out of her eyes. we took her to the vet and he gave us some medicine called neopolybasit to put in her eyes. it seems to be working. any other ideas? also, she has a hard time breathing. when she breathes it sounds a little harsh. we have been giving her tamaflu and cephadrops and also letting her breathe in hot steam from the shower. we hope she beats this lung issue. any other medicine to help with this? any information would be key. it has only been about 4 days since surgery..... so we are hoping time will help! thanks, brittany and andy'
'Re: issues after distemper with balance',
'Please check out the other posts in this forum. People have included a lot of information about their experiences there. Typically, it takes a week before you see any kind of improvement. Some dogs less, some more. We have some links on our main website that may be useful:
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2011/03/24/report-on-effectiveness-of-ndv-treatments/ "
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/08/success-stories-dogs-saved-after-neurologic-stage/
http://kindheartsinaction.com/2009/11/23/video-gallery/
Unfortunately, not every dog with neuro distemper treated with the spinal tap can be saved, but more survive when owners like you are willing to try. Let me know if you need further help, Ed Bond
'Re: issues after distemper with balance', 'How is your dog doing now? We just had the spinal tap a few days ago and are having the same issues. We are concerned he is suffering and does not seem any better. We can 't seem to find any information on what to expect. As are wondering if he is in pain and how long it might take to see improvement, and how to determine if the tap is working at all. Thanks, Lori and Peter',
'My dog survived distemper'
'Hello Everyone I just wanted to share with you a success story. I know how bad it is when you discover you 're beloeved pet has a life threatening disease but i want to share some hope with you. My wife and I decided to get a dog from a rescue pound when we moved to Houston so we got ourselves a 6 month terrier who had been found wandering the streets. We took him home with the knowledge that he was in the middle of his vaccination cycles and never thought any more about it. He continued to live a normal life until Christmas last year; our dog was becoming very lethargic and refused to play. His eyes were caked in crust and he also had a runny nose. We though it was just a normal cold but then one day he got so bad he could hardly walk and would refuse to eat or drink. We took him straight to the Vet and she diagnosed him as having distemper. We knew very little of the disease other than the fact that it has a fairly high mortaility rate and is sifficult to treat. Immediately we began treatment for his pneumonia; at this time he had a seizure also but the vet could not determine whether it was because of the distemper or the stress of the situation he was in. He boarded in the kennels at the vet 's and a few days later we had him back in the house. He was very ill. Anyhow, we had him on medication for seizures and pneumonia and he just slept most of the time. As the pnemonia passed, we started to take him out for walks to try and get him moving again. He responded pretty well. He was still worse for wear and the distemper was still taking a toll on his neurological senses. He had the ever present twitch which would not go away but we made sure that he exercised at every opportunity. In the middle of all this we started to feed him organic foods to try and move him away from taking drugs all the time which were taking a toll financially. We looked at holistic methods to get him better and they did help; he seemed more sprightly and cheekier than usual as a result! Over time, with his herbal meds we were noticing major changes in his behaviour. He would start running round the house like a lunatic, playing with his toy 's and being the really loving doggie he once was. To cut a long story short, out dog has pretty much recovered from distemper. He has a twitch that is a neuro response from the distemper but all in all he is in great health and wonderful to be around. He plays with his toys all the time, runs after his ball and does all the things dogs do! He even swims but he has to be coaxed into doing that at times! People now ask us what the secret is to the transformation. Really it was down to a quick diagnosis, unconditional love for our dog and his desire and will to live. An early diagnosis was key to his survival; had we left it any longer he would most certainly have died. do not ignore the symptoms. You have to stay really strong and shower your dog with alot of love and over time he may too respond positively. Drugs aren 't always the answer; try investigating holistic remedies and make sure the dog gets plenty of exercise to boost his immune system. Our dog survived and we consider ourselves very lucky but you got to have faith the dog will pull through. You simply cannot give up. We never did and as a result i now have a dog who nibbles my hand in the morning to wake me up and then commands me to play with him! Don 't ever lose faith, dogs are alot more resilient that we give them credit for. There is always hope and always the chance the dog will survive and lead a normal life just like ours. I hope this can provide some comfort to those going through the distemper virus in those early, dark days of treatment.'
'Re: My dog survived distemper',
'Thanks so much for your post. You are absolutely correct that early diagnosis and persistent TLC can make a difference in the survival of a distemper dog. What we would like people to know is that there is an effective treatment that when used early enough in the course of the disease will turn off the distemper virus and eliminate the virus. According to the stats we have compiled, the NDV treatments can dramatically increase the chances of a dog 's survival. Typically, without the NDV treatment, only about 20 percent of distemper dogs survive. With NDV -- depending on how early the dog is treated, how old it is and which technique is used -- those survival rates can be increased to 50 percent, 75 percent and even 90 percent or higher. Please check out our report on NDV effectiveness here: http://www.kindheartsinaction.com/about/report-on-the-effectiveness-of-ndv
'Is my dog getting better?'
'It 's been 4 days post NDV serum induction and my 2 month old chow chow pup that I've had since July 9, 2011 is now more energetic than ever. She plays a lot more now but still sleeps a lot. She seems to twitch in her sleep but I asked the vet and she said it was normal for a growing puppy. Is there anything I can do to make sure the process goes smoothly. I would be devastated if she relapsed.
'Re: Is my dog getting better?'
Sorry, I was traveling last week and did not see this post until now. How is your dog doing now? To answer your question, the twitches in her sleep are not as troubling as they would be were she having these awake. I believe this would be called a mild form of chorea, and dogs can live with this for a long time. It is always a concern that the neuro trouble will advance, but I would not worry unless you start seeing twitching during the day, increasing episodes of loss of muscle control or actual seizures. I hope that is helpful. Please contact me directly at ed.bond.new.york@gmail.com Again, I 'm sorry I took so long approving/replying to this post. Ed Bond'
'Re: Is my dog getting better?', 'Hi! You just replied to my e-mail. Hoping for the best.',
'I am Desperate! Please helping my puppy with distemper'
'Hi! My dearest puppy is called XiongXiong who is a 10 months-old bichon Frise. He 's weght is 5.5KG. I noticed that XiongXiong could hardly breath espacially when he got exiceted 4 days ago when I go home. Initially I thought it was Asthma so that I sent XiongXiong to a Vet for an examination. later on, the Dr told me that it is Distemper and there 's only 50% chance that he can be recovered since it is incurable. The Dr said that there were only 5600 white cells which were found in his body and his temperature was about 39.5 degree after the first body examination taken at the Vet. XiongXiong has been hospitalised for 2 days. The Dr checked his body after the first fluid Infusion treatment to enhance his white cells and immune system. XiongXiong 's body temperature dropped to 38.5 degree and the white cells increased from 5600 to 26000 on the second day. However, after the second day treatment XiongXiong hardly can be touched and I could feel his pain on his spinal cord and he is sleepy and hardly move his body. Sometimes he is moaning. I am thinking if it is because that he 's immune system became weak after the 2 treatments with lots of injections and fluid infusions. I am still not sure if I should let him to continue the treatment since the way he looks and acts are even worse than before although the Dr told me that his blood cell increased and his body temperature dropped. I have no idea what I can do for XiongXiong. Tonight I looked up online and saw the notes given by Dr.Sears who recommended to get NDV vaccine. I would like to know if NDV works for XiongXiong 's current signs. Are there any other fluids or vaccines that I can get for Xiong Xiong. (The only issues here is that I am in China Mainland, it might take a little bit longer to import the medicines back to China for Xiong Xiong). I hope that Dr.Sears or other kindness owners of the pets who have had same experiences could give me some knowlege and advices in order to help me pet to fight the distemper . Thanks! Looking forward to hearing some feedbacks! Kind Regards, Suezanne Dong',
'Re: I am Desperate! Please helping my puppy with distemper',
'I 'd received your e-mails and sent you the info. Please let us know how it worked out. Ed Bond
http://www.edbond.com/distemper/ "
'Care after the spinal tap procedure'
'I am interested in talking to anyone that has had a dog receive the spinal tap and iv injection. In all the research I have been doing after Millie had her procedure on Aug. 23 in hopes of finding something that well help in the recovery and regenration process of the myelin. I have read many articles that B12 is an excellant source for this. Also, I came across a web site for herbal supplements that are compounded for each specific case and have ordered a couple of products from Robert McDowell 's Herbal Treatments. One of my questions I have is in regards to the use of B12 as an aid in cell growth. According to Dr. Sears, he does not recommend the administration of B12 since it could stimulate the cell growth of the virus, however, if the dog has been succesfully treated and all the systemic symptoms have disappeared, wouldn 't it be safe to use as the distemper virus is no longer present in the dog? I would like to hear from anyone on this and also would love to hear from anyone that has had a dog recover competely from the neuro stage and anything extra you may have done to help expedite their recovery. Her best day so far was this past Tuesday, 14 days post treatment. No problems what so every; extremely active. Mille no longer has seizures but seems to have developed a twitch. It is not all the time, just sporadic.',
'New neuro symtom development after the spinal'
When a dog like Millie that was having seizures, has been treated using the spinal tap procedure and we know the virus has been stopped, do we typically see new neuro issues develope? Can the neuro aspect of the diesease continue to advance? Again, she has not had a "seizure " since the morning after the procedure and has continued to make steady progress but yesterday seemed a bit weaker with some twitching going on. Not all the time, just sporadic. I am wondering if 1) she is not getting enough excersie as she has to stay in the crate during the day but grandma comes over several times a day to take her out and 2) in the evenings when we are home and she is out, once she gets her bearings she tends to be very active and will run around quite a bit. I 'm wondering if she needs more excerise during the day or if she is having too much stimulation when we get home in the evening. We are just 14 days post treatment. Also, the shaking we spoke about the other day, she is not doing that anymore which I am now more convinced than ever that that was just pure nervousness over the medications. She hated it!
'Re: New neuro symtom development after the spinal',
'If you 're keeping her crated because you wanted to limit activity following the spinal tap, you could probably ease up on that now. At 14 days, we should be beyond the point that we have to worry about the kind of post-tap issues that can give dogs problems. Reasonable exercise sounds like a good idea to me.',
Re: New neuro symtom development after the spinal',
'My border collie breed rescue Moe received his spinal tap treatment from Dr. *** in West Lake Village two months ago. The progression of the disease has been stopped, however Moe continues to have twitching in all limbs 24/7. Moe 's mobility is decreased. His front legs help propel his twitching rear limbs and he seems to still be motivated to exercise, eat, drink, and take care of his bathroom needs. I find it extremely hard to see him this way. I know he will survive the disease at this point, however I worry about his quality of life. Being a border collie, he is used to being very active and it is so hard to see him so limited. I am investigating getting him a rear limb wheelchair to ease his walking and running. I have hopes, perhaps unrealistic, that Moe will have improvement of his neurological sx as more time goes by. It is a good feeling though that Moe has survived to this point and has proven the neurologist wrong in her assessment of his disease progression and the spinal tap tx. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Pam
'Re: New neuro symtom development after the spinal', 'Pam, The rear-limb wheelchair sounds like a good idea to me. In fact, it was used in Florida to help a Dachschund mix in the post-spinal tap phase. His name was Romeo and he eventually was able to stand and walk on his own. I believe the link to his story is on this board. I don 't think it should be a goal, but it could be a way to make things easier for Mo while you pursue options like physical therapy to help strengthen Mo and eventually get him back on his feet. I may be able to track down people who can talk to you about Romeo 's case if needed. Ed', '
'Re: New neuro symtom development after the spinal',
'I 'm glad Moe is doing well. Our dog Bella has more bobbing of her body and twitching than she had before the tap when she is still or asleep. But just like Moe she can run like the wind,play,hop and do all the fun things in life so I believe that even tho the virus is stopped the damage sometimes takes a while to show. However the body can repair itself just like after a stroke. That 's why our vet wanted her exercising the next day after the tap. It has been 6 months since her tap and the bobbing and twitching hasn 't stopped at rest but it has not progressed. it doesn 't bother her or stop her from living and being happy so I try not to worry and the more time that goes by the easier it gets.',
'Re: New neuro symtom development after the spinal', 'I 'm glad Moe is doing well. Our dog Bella has more bobbing of her body and twitching than she had before the tap when she is still or asleep. But just like Moe she can run like the wind,play,hop and do all the fun things in life so I believe that even tho the virus is stopped the damage sometimes takes a while to show. However the body can repair itself just like after a stroke. That 's why our vet wanted her exercising the next day after the tap. It has been 6 months since her tap and the bobbing and twitching hasn 't stopped at rest but it has not progressed. it doesn 't bother her or stop her from living and being happy so I try not to worry and the more time that goes by the easier it gets.'
'Re: New neuro symtom development after the spinal',
thanks for your words of encouragement. you are so right about letting time takes it 's course. who knows, maybe in a year we will both see our dogs even stronger and less of the tremors!
'tremors/twitching post treatment'
I was wondering if anyone has experienced their dogs having 24/7 muscle spasms/twitching after the spinal tap treatment. Moe, my Border Collie, twitches constantly when he is at rest and sleep. However, when we go on walks he runs like the wind and does not exhibit any symptoms. Why would this be? Moe has not had any seizures or any other symptoms post treatment almost three months ago. I have him on a special organic immune supplement which seems to be helping. His appetite is good and he is very playful and responsive. My vet says he has plateaued and that it is just a sometime seen effect with distemper. She discredits the spinal tap treatment as does Moe 's neurologist. I think that Moe would have been dead by now if he had not had this treatment. Any thoughts out there? Thanks...
'Re: tremors/twitching post treatment',
'My biggest advice is to hang in there---the ndv works/worked or your dog would be having grand mal seizures and/or paralysis-- in all my reading it all states once the distemper goes to the brain it causes the encephalitis and the symptoms get worse and worse....unless the ndv spinal is done and induces the the immune system to attack and kill the distemper which many docs are disbeleivers of. My dog, Sookie is very similar in tremor behavior like your dog when she is asleep she does jerk more with legs but than sometimes when I think she is in REM her myoclonus to jaw and head bobbing completely stop---when she runs in yard or even just sitting in sunshine her tremor is much less.There is a fella down in So Florida whose dog Bella even has almost no tremor when she swims in pool--she is another neuro distemper survivor post ndv spinal. So what is happening in brain I often wonder, is it that the actiivity blocks the neuro impulse that triggers the tremor or do they produce their own endorphins that somehow stops the impulse or lessens it==who knows??? Its been about 19 months since my Sookie had her spinal ndv-- she did well afterwards, was up walking again fully without collapse in 2 weeks, her head bobbing has lessened alot but the last to decrease has been the gum jaw spasm and it has so wrecked havoc on her teeth-- she had dental surg in May and went downhill very quickly where teeth were pulled she started rubbing gums down to bone and now has dental brace as we try different things still to decrease jaw spasm so she can have her dental brace removed. My little dog is brave little soul and has mouth brace and is hand fed mooshed home made food but loves life and runs around yard everyday playing unaware of her handicapp. Oh of note we are having some luck with klonopin which is relative to valium but less addictive to dogs and does not make her groggy.We have tried many meds so far too but every dog is different so try different meds, we also tried botox injections but that did not work either
'Re: tremors/twitching post treatment', thanks Vicki for your response. my twitchy Moe dog continues to twitch, some days less than others. fortunately he has never developed the jaw spasms or any seizure activity. i 'm sorry to hear about your pup and the teeth issue...it 's so hard isn 't it? i just hope and wish that one day Moe will wake up without any side effects, but in the meantime we have our best guy around still and participating in family life!
'Re: tremors/twitching post treatment'
'Our dog does the twitching in her sleep and when she 's awake she scrunches her body if she is standing still. but she runs, jumps, eats voraciously,plays and is very happy and active. I realized one day that all of my worrying doesn 't help her and it 's been 6 months since she had the tap - I know it helped her. she would not be here if she had not had it. She 's happy and now I am too.'
'Pup seems to be worse after spinal tap'
'Some friends and I rescued a total of 4 puppies from Texas, all of which came down with Distemper. One unfortunately passed. The others received the serum in late August. All seemed to be getting amazingly better after their treatments(eating again, playing, paws and noses clearing up). After 3 weeks, 2 of the puppies are now showing neurological signs. One of which, my little man Ptarmigan, had the spinal tap on Wednesday. Before the tap, he was twitching only on his left from leg. Afterwards, he is dragging both left limbs. Has anyone heard of this happening/had it happen? His balance is also off and looks as if his alignment is off. He seems to be doing worse after, his nose is getting bad again, his right leg has also now twitched a few times. I have been told that sometimes they get worse before they get better. I am hoping that is the case. He is still eating, and tries to play with his sisters..until we make him calm down. We are going to get more serum overnighted on Monday. From my understanding, it can 't hurt and can possibly help. Any advice is much appreciated! We are very worried parents and just want our little ones to be okay! Thanks!! Laurie'
'Re: Pup seems to be worse after spinal tap',
'Laurie, I am sorry to hear about your little ones. Distemper is such a cruel and unpredictale diesease. I just recently experienced very similar issues with my Millie. Millie went 14 days post treatment completly 100% symptom free before developing new neuro issues. Prior to her tap, she had chewing gum seizures, after the tap, they were completely gone. After speaking with Dr. H in Houston regarding the new neuro issues, he recommended a second tap, unfortunetly for Millie, that recommendation came too late and the neuro issues progressed too rapidly. Knowing now what I didn 't know then and based on Dr. H 's recommendation and his experience in administering the sec tap, I would have done a follow-up tap 10-12 days after the first one. Of course, there is no way of knowing if it would have helped or not. I do know that once damage is done, it takes so much longer for the brain to repair itself. This is my first experience with this virus and the treatments. I do know that supportive and aggresive care, a whole lot of TLC and patience is so vital in getting these dogs thru this. I will keep you and your little ones in my prayers',
'Re: Pup seems to be worse after spinal tap',
'Mary- Thanks so much for your thoughtful response! I am so sorry to hear that the recommendation was too late! This disease is awful No pup should ever have to go through this. I was also wondering, what were the new neuro symptoms that Millie developed after the spinal tap procedure? The more I look at my dog, I do not think he is getting worse, I think I am just paranoid! His twitch is definitely still there, but I think the "twitch " I saw in his right leg was just a result of the left leg twitching and how he was laying. I spoke with Dr. H yesterday, and he said that Ptarmigan 's left side should correct itself with time. My little man is staying strong. I am just keeping my fingers crossed that nothing new develops and he can get past this terrible disease. Thanks for your help!', '
'Re: Pup seems to be worse after spinal tap',
15 days post treatment (after being 100% symptom free)Millie started having a bad head jerk in that her head would jerk all the way around to her right side. It would do it several times before it stopped. It started out just a few times during the day but the time between each episode became shorter and shorter. We increased the phenobarb but it didn 't help. This started on a Wed and by Sat a terrible twitchig had also started which it too progressively got worse. We started her on potassium bromide on Sunday and it did stop the head jerk but the twitching became almost violent at times. Her ability to walk was greatly impaired and true rest for her was few and far between. The following Friday after starting her on the KBr, she continue to go down hill and by the end of the day she was uable to stand and the twitching had become more like jerking and was almost non stop. She had her first grand mal seizure late that evening, clenching teeth and focal seizures. She however, contiued to eat and drink well although she was unable to stand at this point. By Monday morning she was pretty much unresponsive when I got her back to the vets. We pushed fluids all day Monday to rid of system of the pheno and KBr to see what we would have with no meds on board at all and by Tuesday morning it was rather apprenent that the damage done was major so we let her go. I truly hope that your little guy can pull thru. Please keep us posted. Mary',
'Puppy seems to be better after tap, but how will we know?'
'It 's only been a week since the spinal tap. My pup was a little clumsy and I thought it might be an inner ear infection, or at least that 's what I was hoping for. I left town for three days and when I came back, he was much worse. My 5 mo old puppy was twitching in his back right leg and his head was wiggling uncontrollably and I decided to get him the spinal tap immediately. He had some trouble walking at that point. His clumsiness had turned into inability to hold himself up or keep his legs from buckling beneath him. Other than that, he was fine. He had already received the body shot and we believed he had fully recovered before these symptoms appeared. A few days after the tap, Sully started to twitch on his back left leg. I thought this meant the worst - that the spinal tap hadn 't worked and the disease was continuing to spread. But, it has now been a week and one day since the tap. He seems to be much better. He is able to walk, though he still appears to be clumsy at times, and he runs around with our other dogs. His twitch is still there, in both legs, though it seems less noticeable now, and it switches between right and left leg. I 've read other posts where dogs seem to get better and then they suddenly take a turn. Is there a window of time when we are in the clear? His symptoms got so bad so quickly in the three days I was out of town that I think the fact that he hasn 't gotten any worse, but on the contrary, is getting better means that he is actually getting better. But, I 'm skeptical and nervous. Is it safe to say, a month after the surgery, if he isnt getting worse that he is safe? This is the worst disease. I hate that he is going through it. His teeth just started to change color the other day, but I know that affects dogs who survive so that doesn 't worry me. But if anyone knows when we will be able to say we 've reached the light at the end of the tunnel, as opposed to an open sewer, I 'd appreciate any and all insight!'
'Re: Puppy seems to be better after tap, but how will we know'
'Hi my dog got the tap after only having very small twitching on her head above her ear. Afterwards she began to eat immediately on her own which she had not done for at least 5 days. so the tap definitely helped her. But she was weak and went back to not wanting to eat much. She also began having twitching in her back leg. We just kept the intense supportive care going and our vet saw her twice a day - sometimes changing antibiotics, always weighing her and doing blood and fecal tests. long story short that was almost 6 months ago and she is a happy playful girl now. The twitching is still there - even more pronounced and she sort of crouches her whole body instead of just twitching in one spot. But this only happens when she is standing still and it doesn 't hurt her. She is so strong she can jump like a pogo stick. She hops, runs, and devours her food. she is a chihuahua mix weighing only 9.5 lbs but she jumps up on our bed with no problems. Stay in touch with your doc. Every dog is different. I think all of us with distemper survivors will worry somewhat but each day means more odds that your pup has won the battle. I hope knowing that there are others of us out there who felt exaclty like you do helps. And you will know if your pup is happy and then you won 't worry as much. Also, if our dog isn 't feeling well otherwise her symptoms are stronger. when she got spayed she twitched alot more right after the surgery but then it went back to her "normal ". stress also aggravates it so hope this helps and best wishes to you.'
'Nebulizing for Pneumonia in distemper dogs'
'At the start of all this, when my puppy was undergoing the mucus stage of the virus, he came down with pneumonia. I had adopted two dogs from the same shelter, one of which showed signs earlier and died within a few weeks of being adopted. She had pneumonia and it got to a point where she could no longer fight to breathe. A few weeks later, when my other pup had pneumonia and was visibly struggling to breathe, I took him to my vet. My vet is so great and well intentioned but he doesn 't deal with distemper and he has been going through this with us. But, my vet said that he looked a lot like Molly (the other dog I adopted) the morning she died. He empathized with me and said I could put him on oxygen, but there wasn 't much to do. I wasn 't willing to accept that and I just want to share this with people because if I hadn 't spoken with people in Texas who had gone through it, I may have believed him and watched my puppy die that night. I borrowed a nebulizer from a friend and asked my vet for a prescription to use in it. He gave me saline to mix with my prescription for an antibiotic and albuterol. I nebulized my pup 3 times that night with albuterol and three times with saline and the antibiotic and continued to do each three times a day until I took him into my vet and he said there was no more worry that he would die of pneumonia. When I knew what I was looking for, there were videos on YouTube on how to nebulize/coupage your dog. It really saved my dog from pneumonia when he was on the brink of death. Sure, we have other stages to fight through, but my dog has been alive for another month and a half at this point and he is still fighting, and most importantly, happy! I just wanted to share because I haven 't read that nebulizing a dog is an option. I hope this helps someone!'
'Re: Nebulizing for Pneumonia in distemper dogs',
My two year old Border Collie from breed rescue fought off double pneumonia and a collapsed lung just prior to officially being dx 'd with distemper. While Moe was fighting this his vet gave him nebulizer treatments several times a day. It really helped Moe 's comfort level and I think helped him recover more quickly. I think that it is a valid treatment along with the antibiotics.
'Re: Nebulizing for Pneumonia in distemper dogs',
'What is the difference of aspiration pneumonia and regular pneumonia in dogs? The vet said my dog has pneumonia but I was also looking at aspiration pneumonia. What is the difference?'
'Additional treatments for neuro distemper'
'Some additional advice on controlling seizures in a distemper dog from Project Hope in Houston. This may help those who can 't get the NDV spinal tap: "I 've used pycnogenol or pine bark extract every six hours for about four-five weeks and worked successfully. The timing though is VIP (must be exact). You can get it at a Vitaminshoppe.com store in the area. 30 mg capsules for a puppy, 50 mg capsules for a med-large dog. " "The seizures and tremors have to be kept at bay while you help the dog. We use rectal valium and phenobarbital. It takes a good ten days for the pheno to start ramping up so at least two weeks of the children 's liquid valium rectally has been what the vets I 've worked with on these cases use. Up to three times/day. We have also had this valium made up at a compounding pharmacy but it costs more/same effect. " Let us know if you use this treatment and how it works out for you. Ed Bond'
'Alternate treatment for distemper',
'Notes from a Southern California owner with some suggestions that helps her dog. Sharing this because it may be useful to other owners:
“COLOSTRUM: 2 rounded or heaping tsps. in 1/4 cup H2O, 2X day maintenance dose...AM and PM; but in acute stage add more colostrum... maybe double dose for a couple of times. This represents 2 rounded tsps. per six pounds of body weight. “OTHER: Several tsps. gravy from canned dog food (chicken flavor dog food) in a 1/4 cup H2O 1 or 2 X day. If they eat, this is not necessary. For picky eaters canned chicken cat food. Dog should eat at least every four hours. “Can add a tsp. of yogurt to colostrum on occasion to help with diarrhea. “Other incidentals: add bacon fat (very good to do) small amount of Vit A.10 IU on occasion, small amount of coconut oil about 1/16 tsp. or butter to the food. “But it is the colostrum that saves the lives of dogs and cats with distemper. “The NZ bovine colostrum is saving her. I continue with two heaping teaspoons everyday mixed in about 1/4 cup H2O. She is a six pound dog so one has to administer it according to weight I assume but it saves lives!! Please impart this information to others in need. … the dog with distemper must be on an all meat diet. A good way for this is canned dog food. Meat is very important. It is a life saver! If the dog does not eat, mix the gravy from from the dog food can with a little water so he can drink it. He must eat at least every three hour and not wait any longer than that…. try to avoid the beef canned dog food as much as possible and go with the chicken flavor as there is too much disease associated with the beef such as cancer and bovine spongiforme encephalopathy. …. Colostrum is not a cure but an excellent treatment! …you can add cream or sour cream to food if you don 't want to use butter or coconut oil.” "One important thing. It must be bovine colostrum with New Zealand origin as U.S. origin is not as good. Also they have colostrum products out there with fillers in them that don 't work. They have words added like Colostrum Plus. They are not good as they are too weak and diluted. "'
'Re: Alternate treatment for distemper'
'Was she using the liquid form of colostrum? Will powder work?',
'Re: Alternate treatment for distemper',
'Additional info on this treatment: "It must be powdered from New Zealand. Douglas Labs are the best by far. I buy it from Lucky Vitamin or can get it at Amazon. Two heaping teaspoons for every six pounds of weight ... mixed in water as a followup TX. But for now in the acute stage TX is 4-5 heaping teaspoons in water at least 1X per day everyday. If two TX per day can be done then do it. Try to feed the dog canned dog food or at least the gravy. This process with the acute phase can take up to ten days at least, then do the follow-up TX. "'
'Possible alternative to valium?'
'From a message I recently received from Vickie Novak in Orlando, FL:
"Hi Ed, "I had a email from Amy about her 11 week old dog named Lily who was not doing well post spinal with no relief from valium. Interestingly enough I had found that valium never helped Sookie either, I researched a med that helps MS patients tremors, its klonnopin and dogs can take this, its a cousin med to valium but less addictive and for some reason it seems these neuro distemper dogs respond better to it and less addictive and less gorked out. ... Happy to report Lily the pup had great response to the klonnopin per Amy and is doing much better …. Prayers she does well-very worried as Lily is so so young but there is always hope”
So, I wanted to put that out there to see if this helps others. Please post your responses here. Ed Bond'
'Re: Possible alternative to valium?',
'What about phenobarbital? My puppy who was diagnosed with severe distemper and who has been twitching since April 21 is taking this as prescribed by a veterinarian. Honestly, we gave her an Ilium Optigen eye ointment as suggested and handed by a veterinary clinic owner. We applied that on the night of April 20, the same day we went to that clinic and on the following day, she was already twitching. I wonder if that ointment triggered or affected the twitching somehow. She had spinal tap last April 23 (Philippine time) so today is her 14th day after the procedure. Since May 4 or 5, she was not only twitching but she would also fall more often until she would just crawl. I am giving her vitamin A softgels - 25,000 IU a day, vitamin E - 400 IU a day and sodium ascorbate - 250 mg, 2x/day. I am not very sure which vitamin dosages to increase and what more to add to her supplements. Her appetite is still good. She mainly eats raw chicken meat and boiled chicken with tamarind and ginger sometimes. Yesterday, we bought a cage for her so she is now there. When she crawls or falls, there won 't be any chance that she will fall on the cement floor anymore. I am thinking of giving her First Pulse D colostrum. I don 't know how to inject vitamin A and C but I read somewhere that it is more effective than taking the vitamins orally. The puppy is a rescued puppy that we saw outside the gate of her previous house. The first veterinarian that we went to quickly diagnosed her with kennel cough just because she was coughing. The veterinarian lied. It was obvious that there was something more serious as her eyes were already different (now I know how the eyes of dogs with distemper look like) and she has a skin condition that was already present from the moment we rescued her.',
'Re: My dog survived distemper',
'Hello Matt & Ed! May I know exactly what you would your dog when he had distemper? You said you would exercise him at every opportunity. Is this advisable? I put our puppy in a cage now so she won 't hit herself against the floor anymore. Perhaps I should take him once every day to get her exercise. Where would you take your dog to exercise? Your response to my questions will be highly appreciated. Thank you very much!',
Re: My dog survived distemper',
'Hello Matt & Ed! May I know exactly what you would your dog when he had distemper? You said you would exercise him at every opportunity. Is this advisable? I put our puppy in a cage now so she won 't hit herself against the floor anymore. Perhaps I should take him once every day to get her exercise. Where would you take your dog to exercise? Your response to my questions will be highly appreciated. Thank you very much!',
'Re: My dog survived distemper',
'Hello Matt & Ed! I want to ask what exactly you would feed your dog with. You said you would exercise him at every opportunity. So dogs with distemper should still have their exercise, right? My puppy is in a cage now so she won 't hurt herself against the floor. Where would you take your dog for his exercise?',
'How to Clean Dogs with Distemper?'
'I was wondering how you guys clean your dogs when they get dirty? Are they already okay to take a bath 1 week after the spinal tap?',
'Re: How to Clean Dogs with Distemper?', '
You should be careful about bathing distemper dogs. It comes down to whether you think the dog is on the path to recovery. I once lost a distemper dog because I tried bathing her. She was filthy from the buildup of snot, saliva and food in her fur. We thought a bath was the right thing. But the water -- probably too cold -- shocked her system and triggered unstoppable seizures. We had no choice but to euthanize. But this was also long before we knew about the NDV spinal tap. If your dog has been treated and is showing recovery, it MIGHT be OK to bathe the dog. But I would recommend caution. 1) Consider a sponge bath, using water at body temperature. Use just enough moisture to do the job, no more. 2) Be wary of sudden changes of temperature. I have heard from other dog owners that extreme temperatures can trigger seizures. However, you may be able to bring it under control with medications such as phenobarbital. What do others think about this issue? Ed Bond', '
Re: How to Clean Dogs with Distemper?',
'Thank you for the response, Ed. Our puppy is in the cage. There were a few times when she rolled into her own feces. She looks really dirty now like she fell in mud. We are worrying this might give her a new illness or not help her with her current battle. We wash her cage every other day with bleach and apple cider vinegar, and clean it with a wet mop almost every day. I guess we should clean her cage every single day, at least.',
'Holistic Treatment for Distemper'
Sent from Megan Jicha, who credits this treatment with saving her dog: Diet: Balanced Organic Human Grade Diet. Example meal would be made up of: organic turkey, organic lentils, organic zucchini, organic kale, spinach, organic sage, organic maitake mushroom, organic ginger, organic acai berry, organic oregano, and organic dill weed. Other meat options beyond turkey include: Duck, White Fish, Venison, Beef, and Wild Board. We used pre-made meals prepared by The Petstaurant thepetstaurant.com/ in Sherman Oaks, CA, but you can easily make these meals at home as well (view instructions for at-home meal-making here: http://thepetstaurant.com/nutrition/pet-recipes/ " We put our pup on this meal plan
Treatment Supplement Plan:
1 PureBiotics Maxima Probiotics http://www.naturalhealthyconcepts.com/pure-biotics-maxima-30-p-pure-essence-labs.html pill a day served in 1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
1 Immune-R http://thepetstaurant.com/shop/uncategorized/immune-r/ pill a day served in 1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
1 L-Theory http://www.herbantheory.com/shop/l-theory pill a day served in 1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
1 Cellular-D http://thepetstaurant.com/shop/uncategorized/cellular-d/ pill a day served in 1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Vitamin C http://www.azmira.com/products/supplements/super-c-2000/ daily.
Optional: We added 1/3 olive leaf http://www.amazon.com/VetriScience-Laboratories-Supplement-Pets-Count/dp/B00008DFB8/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460145892&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=vertiscience+olive+leaf+for+animals pill a day served in1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner. A
bout halfway through treatment we added in:
1 ReGenStem http://www.bernardjensen.com/ReGenStem-120-Capsules_p_590.html pill a day served in 1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Please note: All treatment and dosage was customized to our very small and very sick 3 lb. Chiweenie. Dosage and treatment for your pup may be different. Marc Ching from The Petstaurant helped us to devise this supplement plan. I highly advise reaching out to him for assistance in developing your own custom plan instead of simply lifting ours.
Recovery Supplement Plan:
1 Flora-Therapy http://www.herbantheory.com/shop/flora-theory pill a day served in 1/3 increments throughout day. We feed by sprinkling into peanut butter & cheese treats.
1 ReGenStem http://www.bernardjensen.com/ReGenStem-120-Capsules_p_590.html pill a day served in 1/3 increments in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
1 Adrenal Essence http://www.amazon.com/Pure-Essence-Labs-AdrenalEssence-Vegetarian/dp/B007IJ0DEO/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1460142287&sr=8-1&keywords=Adrenal+Essence pill served in 1/3 increments throughout day. We feed by sprinkling into same peanut butter & cheese treats the FLora-Therapy was in.
1 B-Complex http://www.herbantheory.com/shop/950h3q9h1zrcfszxcegee5jl7n976l pill a day served in 1/3 increment in ea. meal: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
1/2 L-Theory http://www.herbantheory.com/shop/l-theory pill. In AM meal only. Please note: All treatment and dosage was customized to our small chiweenie, who weighed about 5 lbs after he was officially deemed a survivor form distemper. Dosage and treatment for your pup may be different. Marc Ching from The Petstaurant helped us to devise this supplement plan. I highly advise reaching out to him for assistance in developing your own custom plan instead of simply lifting ours. Working with the right vet I feel it is incredibly important to mention that you should work with a veterinarian who fully understands distemper, supports holistic treatment, and is knowledgeable enough to discuss ALL your options with you. We were lucky to be blessed in this department with one of the most knowledgeable and caring vets out there: Dr. Palmquist, Centinela Animal Hospital, Inc, Inglewood, CA. TLC LOVE, love, LOVE. It 's so important. We were lucky b/c I work from home and was able to be with our pup every step of the way. Constantly providing him with love, encouragement, positivity, and the help and assistance he needed (For example, our pup was unable to walk for a couple of months. This mean hand feeding all meals, holding up to allow to go to the bathroom, cleaning up after accidents, and performing physical therapy exercises.). Lastly I do think it is important to note that our pup was lucky b/c he did have ONE dose of the distemper shot in him before he got full-fledged distemper. Our vet believed this helped him survive. If you 'd like, you can also include my e-mail in the post - meganjicha@gmail.com just in case people want to reach out with questions.'